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Leman Cross Plains Rifle kit

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Post by FrontierGander 21/7/2021, 11:50 pm

Arrived safely! A Doc White, in the white kit gun. I've already started by inletting the barrel channel larger and then proceeded to bed the tang and barrel for a nice weather resistant sealed fit. Any tiny little wood splinters, I shaved or sanded away before bedding it. By the time its fully bedded, It'll be from the tang, all the way to the nose cap.

This gun uses an Austin & Helleck .50cal barrel with 1:66  twist. Maple stock is gorgeous! A lot of wood removal at the butt end of the stock, but that's a good problem to have. The lock panel will also need quite a bit of wood removed.

The pewter nose cap needed a lot of filing inside of the barrel channel. I got it close to flush with the wood, but that wasn't really needed as I was bedding the rifle anyway.

Just some shots I took today of the rifle. I'll post more as the build goes on.
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Last edited by Admin on 22/7/2021, 10:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Knifemaker3 22/7/2021, 8:56 am

I see you stated you bedded this rifle for water resistance. Do you think it will improve accuracy? Did you use Acraglass for the bedding agent? I am assuming you are talking bedding like I do here for modern guns in my shop. I've always wondered if bedding and free floating would improve accuracy on a rb muzzleloader like it sometimes does with modern guns

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Post by Buck Conner 22/7/2021, 9:30 am

Knifemaker3 wrote:I see you stated you bedded this rifle for water resistance.  Do you think it will improve accuracy?  Did you use Acraglass for the bedding agent? I am assuming you are talking bedding like I do here for modern guns in my shop.  I've always wondered if bedding and free floating would improve accuracy on a rb muzzleloader like it sometimes does with modern guns

All the rifles I have owned (ones I used) were glass bedded, yes accuracy was improved.

This will be an interesting build and testing with the different barrel manufacturer "Austin & Helleck" out of Provo UT.

I will be sending Jonathan a GRRW.CA "H.E. Leman Trade Rifle" (same as he has on the bench) for testing next week. This rifle was built by GRRW / GRRW.CA gunsmith Les Bennett (a complete rifle), we just want to see how it shoots and put the "Birchwood Casey Genuine Oil" finish on it.

Jonathan will be doing the same with the GRRW.CA "H.E. Leman NW Trade Gun" he's testing at this time. Our nose cap design has changed a little that Jonathan may want to consider for the rifle he's building.

Between myself and Doc White we seemed to have made Jonathan Koziol (Boncarbo, Colorado) our personal accessories (special additions like seen here for GRRW.CA). With this young man's skills, testing and videos (this is another advertising plus for all concerned).

Very Happy


Last edited by Buck Conner on 12/8/2021, 4:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by FrontierGander 22/7/2021, 10:01 am

Knifemaker3 wrote:I see you stated you bedded this rifle for water resistance.  Do you think it will improve accuracy?  Did you use Acraglass for the bedding agent? I am assuming you are talking bedding like I do here for modern guns in my shop.  I've always wondered if bedding and free floating would improve accuracy on a rb muzzleloader like it sometimes does with modern guns

Yes, the biggest change I notice after bedding a muzzleloader is that the tang screws rarely come loose. I will be pulling the trigger later this evening and taking a look at what I can do there as well. This rifle uses a single pin to hold the barrel in place, so taking up any minor loose spots and locking the barrel in place firmly with solid bedding I feel, will automatically make things better.

I use JB Weld. It IMO is way better than acraglass. I've always had issues with acraglass not fully curing or being sticky in places. JB weld does an excellent job and after you sand it lightly on any place that may show, Will darken up with the alcohol stain when the stock is finished. I use the original JB weld as well. None of the 5 minute stuff.


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Post by Knifemaker3 22/7/2021, 10:14 am

I've not had issues with Acraglass but I wonder if it may be due to differences in elevation, humidity levels etc.  Different parts of the country different materials react differently.  I'm a firm believer in go with what works for you and don't bash others who get something else to work for them.  There is always more than one way to skin a cat. So, if JB weld works for you I would suggest buying stock in the company or getting 55 gallon barrels of it! Laughing Seriously, glad it works for you.

As for accuracy, I'll have to try that some time and see what results I get.  

Thanks!

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Post by Buck Conner 22/7/2021, 4:47 pm

Jonathan, just received Bennett Leman, will forward it to you tomorrow first thing. This will give you an idea of how slim the Leman's are. Some guys make them pretty stocky, the one your getting is pretty much standard for the size of the stock.

Leman Cross Plains Rifle kit Grrw_c13
This H.E. Leman Trade Rifle is for comparison on wood that may need to be removed on gun being built.
[/center]

Leman Cross Plains Rifle kit 1f600


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Post by Buck Conner 22/7/2021, 4:54 pm

Admin wrote:I use JB Weld. It IMO is way better than acraglass. I've always had issues with acraglass not fully curing or being sticky in places. JB weld does an excellent job and after you sand it lightly on any place that may show, Will darken up with the alcohol stain when the stock is finished. I use the original JB weld as well. None of the 5 minute stuff.

This is interesting, have had the same issues with Acraglass, pretty much gave up using it for those reasons. Some of the older products we were use to using have changed over the years - some are better and others no so much......

Embarassed
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Post by FrontierGander 22/7/2021, 5:16 pm

Could be! Another issue was after opening the jars, sometimes it would be dried out the next time I went to use it. JB Weld does a great job. Knocked the barrel and tang out today and everything looked perfect.
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Post by Buck Conner 24/7/2021, 9:43 am

Admin wrote:I use JB Weld. It IMO is way better than acraglass. I've always had issues with acraglass not fully curing or being sticky in places. JB weld does an excellent job and after you sand it lightly on any place that may show, Will darken up with the alcohol stain when the stock is finished. I use the original JB weld as well. None of the 5 minute stuff.

Wonder how JB Weld would hold up to getting wet or wear if used in a different application.

I have been looking for a product that could be used on a hand made felt hat like worn in the western movement. I have seen ones in museums that are as hard as a rock, made of felt with many coats of linseed oil or something like that, that is as hard as the floor we are standing on.

I wonder how JB Weld would hold up to getting wet and not make a mess?

Laughing
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Post by Knifemaker3 24/7/2021, 10:25 am

Admin wrote:Could be! Another issue was after opening the jars, sometimes it would be dried out the next time I went to use it. JB Weld does a great job. Knocked the barrel and tang out today and everything looked perfect.

A little trick I've learned is to store my liquids upside down on the cap. Just make sure the cap is on good! Shocked

With acraglass you can't so much so I store it with the cap on and not the little spout. But, I buy it in the big commercial use bottles. The little jars that come in the small kit I've not had troubles with.

I live in southern Missouri, so I'm sure elevation, humidity, etc. is a factor in why it works for me and may not for you.

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Post by Buck Conner 24/7/2021, 12:26 pm

I hear you "elevation, humidity, etc. is a factor" here in the Rockies. Uffda is a pretty good assembler of these kit guns. Jack Gardener of TVM (he started the firm), met me in St. Louis at Fort DeChartre in IL. We talked about his guns, kits and other items he had for sale.

I got to thinking having a muzzle-loader store in CO. with a bunch of parts: locks, barrels, pre carved stock along with all the other items needed to build rifles - percussion and flinters. For me these items came from purchases of other shops (stores) over a 10 year period (dead inventory, just didn't sell like expected).

After a little wheel and dealing a deal was made (trade) parts for rifles in the "white". Jack got what he wanted and I got rid of dead inventory for (12) "kit" guns that would sell.

Uffda is always at the store (would either eat on the drive up to the shop from work or bring food to be cooked, had a six burner wood stove in store). This is 7 days a week (I thought I must of adopted him and couldn't remember).

Back to the subject: "Acraglass", Uffda buys or trades for one of these kit rifles. Goes home and within a few days has the gun ready for finish, then decides to glass bed the tang and barrel. He calls the next day, he's sick, the Acraglass has glued itself to the barrel and the stock (he can't make it come apart, release agent didn't work). He worked on that gun with a rawhide hammer, freezing the stock and barrel, heating the assembly (nothing worked). Finally he throws  the stock with barrel in a snow bank for an hour then tried again and the barrel came out of the stock. What a problem, and the worst part was he had sold the finished gun to a good friend then the Acraglass screwed things up for a week.

The two of them talked about this for weeks until I told them "another word about this issue and your thrown out of the store", that stopped the crying....


Evil or Very Mad
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Post by FrontierGander 27/7/2021, 5:52 pm

Did a little shaping today. So far, I am not a fan of these square style cheek piece. IMO its just decoration and not functional at all. I think it would look better without a cheek piece, but I will decide on that later. I looked at some GRRW leman rifles and after seeing them, I can clearly see its not a functional piece.

A lot of wood to remove, but thats a good thing! It was easily removed with a rasp.
Leman Cross Plains Rifle kit 100-2337
Leman Cross Plains Rifle kit 100-2343
Leman Cross Plains Rifle kit 100-2344
next I will work on filing the toe plate flush.
Leman Cross Plains Rifle kit 100-2345

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Post by Buck Conner 27/7/2021, 6:29 pm

Do you have a lot of material (wood) to remove when compared to the Les Bennett gun? Now you can see how dark the wood is on his gun and the new style of the poured nose cap (looks much better than those of old).
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Post by FrontierGander 27/7/2021, 6:36 pm

lots of wood to work with in the cheek piece area. I just dislike that square cheek piece. I think it throws off the look of the rifle
Leman Cross Plains Rifle kit Img_1610
Leman Cross Plains Rifle kit 100_2311
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Leman Cross Plains Rifle kit Empty Cheek piece- The cheek piece on Leman rifles should not be >square but shotld flow in graceful curves into the wrist as well as the ear of the buttstock. The photo showing the fullstock Leman Indian Trade RIfle is an excellent example of how it should loo

Post by DOC WHITE 1/8/2021, 12:10 pm

Admin wrote:lots of wood to work with in the cheek piece area. I just dislike that square cheek piece. I think it throws off the look of the rifle
Leman Cross Plains Rifle kit Img_1610
Leman Cross Plains Rifle kit 100_2311
Very Happy

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Post by Buck Conner 1/8/2021, 2:34 pm

Jonathan, here is what Doc is referring to for the cheek piece.

Leman Cross Plains Rifle kit Cheek_12




Leman Cross Plains Rifle kit Campma17
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Leman Cross Plains Rifle kit Empty Leman cheek-

Post by DOC WHITE 3/8/2021, 1:18 pm

Buck Conner wrote:Jonathan, here is what Doc is referring to for the cheek piece.

Leman Cross Plains Rifle kit Cheek_12




Leman Cross Plains Rifle kit Campma17
This is Doc- In the hopes of helping out I cut a proper 'Tennessee" cheek piece into another of the Leman kit stocks and took several photos before, after, side , top bottom Etc. Now I can't figure our how to get the photos onto the blog. Blogging is new to me.   However the photo that Buck refers to as the correct configuration is exactly that - correct. I should explain, When I designed the Leman Kit, I purposefully left enough wood on the cheek piece so that the final crafter could rasp in the  design he wanted, whether 'Tennessee' or 'beavertail'. I am going to do one with a beavertail, if you would teach me  how to get a photo onto the blog, I will send photos of it, too. DOC

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Post by FrontierGander 3/8/2021, 1:54 pm

Click here, select file, upload the file, once its complete,  hit the insert button.Leman Cross Plains Rifle kit Screen10
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Post by Buck Conner 5/8/2021, 1:22 pm

Jonathan I just got this message from Doc.

Buck- enclosed above are photos of a Leman Cross Plains rifle kit buttstock, showing the possible alteration to the cheekpiece. This is the pattern I like  and that is seen in about half the originals.

Photo #1 is the sit stock as it leaves my shop (get a look at the figure in the maple), It is purposefully over size so the final crafter can form it as he pleases. I have penciled in the form that I often use- the 'Tennessee' style.
Leman Cross Plains Rifle kit Lemank12

Photo #2 shows the cheekpiece rasped into shape  but not yet sanded.
Leman Cross Plains Rifle kit Lemank10

Photo #3 shots the view from the top and #4 shows the view from the bottom.  The so called 'beavertail' style of cheek can also be formed.
Leman Cross Plains Rifle kit Lemank11

Leman Cross Plains Rifle kit Lemank13


Very Happy

I will email photo of it shortly,  DOC

Surprised
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Post by Buck Conner 5/8/2021, 1:32 pm

Buck- enclosed are photos of my Leman Cross plains rifle kit with a 'beavertail' cheek rasped into the oversize Tennessee style cheekpiece that comes from the carver. There is just enough extra wood to fit the beavertail. Now a few generalities. I have never see anything but a Tennessee style cheek on a Leman fullstock. Leman halfstocks
are 50/50 tennessee and beavertail, so take your pick, depending on whether you want an early Tennessee or a later beavertail, the change was about 1840-50.

Photo #1 is the beavertail cheek as rasped, no sanding yet.
Leman Cross Plains Rifle kit Lemank14

Photo #2 is from above.
Leman Cross Plains Rifle kit Lemank15
[/center]

[center]
Photo #3 is from below.
Leman Cross Plains Rifle kit Lemank16
{/center]


I hope all this helps. DOC  Rolling Eyes


Smile
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Post by uffda 2/7/2022, 3:50 pm

I used acraglass. Yes that one rifle was an issue. APPLY RELEASE AGENT LIBERALLY. AND DO IT AGAIN. However, it really does make a difference. I've free floated hunting rifles in 270 30/30 30 /06 and even 22. A solid bed in the entire action tang and to the first barrel lug is beneficial. Only had one rifle that was not improved. A friend had it, but It later was rebarreld.( 30/06) which fell out of a jeep going down the highway. Did save the beautiful figured walnut stock though and got it all receded.Turned out to be a very accurate rifle. He still had it when he passed. Best release agent I had best luck with consistently is plain old "Johnson's paste wax" yep the stuff in the yellow can for furniture. Hope the info helps.
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Post by uffda 2/7/2022, 3:56 pm

P.s. I've done lots of muzzloaders too. Glass the bedding from the end of the tang to the end of the stock including the nose cap. Don't know about a swamped barrels, not done those. Also be sure to bed the lock and trigger tang assembly.
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